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TDB467
JH Member
Posts:7
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| 03/11/2010 10:13 AM |
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Hello,
I am currently in the process of applying to become an Army aviator (Warrant Officer). I am a 23 year old male in good physical shape and I have recently graduated with a degree in Mechanical Engineering. I have a few questions about the process, so if there are any Soldiers on here who could help me out, I would appreciate it.
1. Do I need a letter of recommendation from a current Army aviator, CW3 or above? I have heard only applicants who are enlisted or prior service (I'm not) need this letter and I've also heard everyone needs one. Do I need one or not?
2. If the answer to question 1 is yes, are there any Army air bases in Massachusetts (Worcester area)? I've been looking online but so far the closest one I can find is in New York, which is quite a drive. I'm happy to make that drive if that is what it takes to become an Army aviator but if there was a closer base that would be nice.
3. Which letters of recommendation are generally better? Someone with a high rank or position who doesn't really know me or someone who is not as advanced in their career but who knows me well?
4. My recruiter never seems too thrilled to hear from me. He never calls me, I always call him, even when he says he'll call at a certain time. I realize recruiting is one of the hardest jobs in the military, but getting a little attention with this whole thing would be nice. He has admitted he doesn't know a lot about WOFT packets and I'm doing most of the leg work myself. Is this because he has an enlisted quota to make but not a warrant quota? Is it because if I am selected and complete WOCS, I'll outrank him despite his years of experience? Does he perhaps think I won't get accepted and am therefore a waste of time? How can I get him more on my side with this whole process? Should I try a different recruiter?
5. I hear with the economy being weak, much more people are applying. With a Democrat in office, who is trying to shrink the defense budget and withdraw troops from the Middle East, it would seem likely less spots are available. People describe the selection as being "competitive" but that is pretty vague. Approximately what percentage has been selected in recent boards? I know it depends on "the needs of the service" but I am trying to determine if I have a realistic chance or if it is a pipe dream. I'll still apply if I only have a 0.001% chance, because that's still a lot better than 0%.
Thanks for taking the time to read and answer. I really appreciate it.
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sct407
JH Guru
Posts:71
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| 03/12/2010 9:59 AM |
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TDB,
I'm not going to specifically answer any of your questions because none of my information is very current. I went through Army flight shcool 20 yrs ago, so you need some current advice on your packet.
However, I will tell you this. GO TALK WITH THE AIR FORCE! Since you have a college degree, you can be a Commissioned Officer in any of the other services. Go talk with them all- Air Force, Navy/Marine and even the Coast Guard. You have a lot of options as a 23 yr old college grad. You will be treated better and have a higher quality of life in any of the other services.
Call or visit the local AF recuiter and ask them for the name and phone number for the Officer recuiter in the region. The AF has a recuiter who only deals with officer packets and knows the in's and out's of what's required for the flight selection board.
Just explore ALL of your options.
Good Luck,
ST
Former Army Aviator- current Lt Col in AF Reserves. Aim High!
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TDB467
JH Member
Posts:7
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| 03/12/2010 2:13 PM |
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Thanks for the advice, SCT. My first choice was actually Marine officer with an air contract. I started to apply for a Marine commission in February of 2009, and my packet was submitted for consideration for the January 2010 Marine OCS class. However, due to a large backup at Marine/Navy flight school, the Marines canceled all air contracts for a year. Once they start up again, it is expected to be ultra competitive. I may consider reapplying if I haven't found another route into the military by then but I am evaluating my other options.
Discouraged by the situation with the Marines, I decided to apply to the Navy, as it was pretty much as simple as unchecking the box that said "USMC" and checking the one that said "Navy". Those two services share an almost identical application process with the exception that the Marines require more things before you submit your packet, such as a flight physical, where as the Navy only requires that after your packet is selected. Anyways, after waiting to hear back from the board for what seemed like an eternity, I found out I was selected to go to Navy OCS!!!!!!......as an NFO student. If you are unfamiliar with Naval aviation, NFO stands for Naval Flight Officer and he/she is in charge of operating radar, operating communications systems, operating electronic countermeasures, coordinating tactics and other strategic jobs that are in the aircraft, but don't involve flying it. I am not really sure how I feel about this. I realize that it is an important job and it is an honor to be selected, but I really had my heart set on flying.
I was going to apply to the Army next because I will have a chance to fly helicopters (which is what I want) and support the troops on the ground. As a warrant officer, I won't have to worry about getting promoted out of the cockpit if I decide to make a career out of it. My primary duty will be flying and becoming a more tactically proficient aviator. If I accumulate enough hours and become very skilled, I could even apply to become a member of the elite 160th aviation regiment, who conduct special operations aviation missions. I believe I would really enjoy the esprit de corps and sense of accomplishment for helping out those in need, if I were able to complete 160th's demanding training.
I hadn't really considered the airforce for a few reasons. First, the airforce gets nearly all of its pilots through ROTC and the Air Force Academy, and very few through OTS. The Air Force has the highest academic standards for selection, and while I had a 3.25 college GPA, they seem to be looking for true super stars. I also doubt I have enough extracurricular to get selected. Even if I were selected, the Air Force flys a lot of non-tactical missions, which isn't what I want. Perhaps, I have been reading too many USMC/Navy/Army forums, but they also have a reputation for having the most military bureaucracy of any service (no offense sir). You mention a higher standard of living, which is great and everything, but I want to get my boots dirty. What it all boils down to is I doubt they would want me and I'm not sure I want them either (once again, nothing personal sir).
The Coast Guard sounds really cool, but they won't guarantee aviation, unlike all the other services. They are also even pickier that the AF when it comes to selecting officers. I might apply to become a Coat Guard aviator after serving in the Army, as the one way to get a guaranteed aviation slot is to serve as a rotary wing aviator in another service, apply, and get selected for a transfer
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sct407
JH Guru
Posts:71
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| 03/12/2010 7:12 PM |
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| No offense taken..... I am glad to hear that you have explored and considered all of your options. That was my true concern. It appears that you have really thought through this decesion.
If you really want to fly helicopters and 'get your boots dirty,' then the Army is the place for you. Being a WO in the Army is a great and rewarding career. You will fly good equipment, with some of the best guys you will ever be around, doing some of the most dangerous yet rewarding work of your life. Although I have now served 10+ yrs in the AF Reserves, I would not trade my Army flight experience for anything in the world.
From what I have been told, you need to find a recuiter who has done a WO flight packet before. You are correct that a recuiter does not get 'credit' for WO's- just enlistments, so you will be the last priority for this guy/gal. Just be as proactive and persistant as necessary to keep things moving. All things are cyclic and it is just dumb-luck as to when and where you hit the cycle. Be persitant and patient. If it takes you more than one board then so be it. Learn from the first one and resubmit the next time. Keep pursuing the goal, it is worth the effort.
Good Luck and thanks for your willingness to serve.
Oh one more thing for the record..... the AF helicopters are part of Special Operations Command and flying much more than 'non-tactical missions,' mostly in Aphganistan.
EDITED- I guess my laptop running 'vista' won't do paragragh breaks! Ouch. |
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TDB467
JH Member
Posts:7
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| 03/13/2010 9:42 AM |
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Thanks again, Sir. With any luck, I should be going to take the ASVAB on Monday. My recruiter has said he has been having difficulty in getting the Navy to transfer my paperwork to the Army, even though they are legally required to do so. I am aware the Air Force also conducts Special Operations missions and other important missions, both tactical and non-tactical. What I had meant by my statement is that the Army only has four types of helicopters (for the most part), any of which I would be happy in, but the Air Force has lots of different types of planes and helicopters, only some of which I am really enthusiastic about flying their mission. Thanks for your service, Sir.
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akscott60
JH Newbie
Posts:1
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| 03/16/2010 10:36 AM |
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I am a civilian soon to ship off to basic, and I was selected in the Jan 2010 WOFT board. I am pretty up to date on what they want.
1. Apply. You can't be non select if you don't apply in the first place.
2. As a civilian, you can have up to 6 LOR's. I come from a military pilot family and community, so I had 2 Generals, 1 CW4, and 3 Colonels from Army and USMC. Get letter from aviators if you can, if not, people that really know you well, and can speak to leadership and responsibility.
3. Selection is competitive right now. Of the 30-35 WOFT candidates that apply each month, 10-12 are selected. You get 2 chances, and then you have to wait 6 months to reapply. I was selected on my second chance, and I consider myself very competitive. 150 AFAST, CFII with 500 hours, great LOR's, etc.
4. Most recruiters don't know the WOFT process, so they dont bother, or they know its very long. My process took from 15 May 2009 until Jan 2010. If your recruiter really drags, get a new one. Don't let someone screw up your dreams.
Good Luck. |
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vettepilot
JH Newbie
Posts:2
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| 03/17/2010 8:34 AM |
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Hello TDB467,
I am a retired CW4 with over 30 years of Army Aviation experience, 26 of which was as a WO Aviator. My flight school time was back in 1976, so things have greatly changed. However, since I now reside 10 minutes from Ft Rucker, I do get the chance to see what's goingf on in the 21st Century.
First, I highly commend your aspirations and completing on college, that makes you very competative these days. Second, going the Army WO ropute is the best way to stay in the cockpit, and aquire aviation related advanced schools, depending on the track you decide upon.
Now the process, you wondered about the letter of recommendation, you will need a field grade Officer or Warrant Officer to interview you, then they will compose the letter. In your geographical area, you can probably call any Natl. Guard Army Aviation Support Facility to request an interview. In your area, there are a couple of Natl. Guard facilities I can think of off the top of my head. Bradley Intl. in Windsor Locks, Ct has an Army Av Facility located on the field, and Quonset Air Park, RI also has a facility. Both should be within a two hour drive.
Don't worry if they are Guard or Reserve Officer, they hold the same credence for the letter as Active duty folks. In fact they may have more aviation experience all things being equal rank wise.
The rest of the process is pretty straight forward, Class 1 Flt Physical, the writtren exam, (whatever they are calling it these days), submission of your packet etc. Applications, go to Ft Knox, are reviewed and decided upon. Then just wait to see how it goes.
That's about all I have except for one more item.... the 160th. I was in the 160th from 1986 till 1998 as a Little Bird SIP, Instrumnet Flt Examiner, and Maint. Test pilot Evaluator. I sat on many assessment boards interviewing applicants.
The first thing you will need to do is get at least one assignment under your belt and plenty of NVG time. Todays' Army offers plenty of chances to do just that.... and you will most likely get combat experience before you apply to the Regiment. You will be glad you have all three if you are accepted and begin training.
Best wishes on your future.
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highside7r
JH Newbie
Posts:2
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| 03/17/2010 11:55 AM |
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TDB,
Great advice and with your degree look to apply to all services as stated before. For info on the others:
www.airwarriors.com (USN/USMC/USCG)
www.baseops.net (USAF) |
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bernie.smith
JH Newbie
Posts:4
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| 03/17/2010 4:04 PM |
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TDB467,
If you haven't already checked these sites out here they are;
http://www.usarec.army.mil/hq/warrant/index.htm
http://usawocc.army.mil/
They should help you with the process and hopefully put you in touch with a recruiter who is focused on Warrant Officer Candidates, not the typical quotas regular recruiters get points for. I was blessed with a good recruiter who took good care of me even though he didn't get any "credit" for putting me in. I was a former Marine Infantry guy (which should tell you ANYBODY can make it :-) with a break in service so I was technically a civilian. At that time I did not need a letter of recomendation from a Senior Warrant. I got three letters from my pastor, a professor at a local university, and a CPA. To answer question 3, if you do need letters from Senior Warrants, get a letter from both; someone who knows you well as a CW3, and a CW5 who doesn't know you but is willing to interview you and hopefully willing to write a letter for you. The more the better. Even with two wars going on and people retiring, it's still competitive.
Like some of the previous posts, I went to Flight School 20 years ago so things have changed a lot since then. I retired Jan '09 so I wouldn't want to address any specific questions regarding the process. I also wrote an article for Just Helicopters back in 2003 about becoming an Army Helicopter Pilot. This site has been reconstructed since then but I believe it recently popped up in one of their emails with links to articles. If you can't find it email me and I'll send you a copy on MS Word.
I'm a Southern boy so Massachussets and New York are in the same place, but if you're willing to drive, find a CW5 in the 10th Mountain Division at Fort Drum to interview you.
If you don't get picked up, keep applying until you change your mind! All they can do is say no. Having your degree already makes you competitive. It sounds like your "dirty boots" attitude has you right on track.
A couple of years ago the 160th started picking up guys right out of flight school. Not sure if they were short or it's a paradigm shift to train guys the way they want before they're infected by the "Big Army"'s way of thinking. Your TAC Officers will know so ask them once you start. Best of luck. Air Assault!!
BSmith
CW4
UH-60 SP/IE |
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bernie.smith
JH Newbie
Posts:4
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| 03/17/2010 4:19 PM |
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TDB467,
Here's the link to the article I mentioned:
http://justhelicopters.us1.list-manage1.com/track/click?u=39d227bb22df053ce89e7de7a&id=055be611e0&e=8f7e33aba5
B Smith |
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TDB467
JH Member
Posts:7
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| 03/17/2010 8:33 PM |
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Thanks for all the replies, I really appreciate it.
I went on Monday to take the ASVAB. I don't know my scores yet, but I know I scored in the 99th percentile, so they can't be too bad. However, I know the AFAST is more difficult and more important, so I bought a studying guide and am studying everyday.
AKScott,
Congratulations on getting selected. It looks like you had a really competitive application. I don't have the military contacts you have, so I think almost all of my letters of recommendations will be from civilians. I think probably 2 professors, 2 former employers, the manager of the after-school program I volunteered for and the mandatory aviator. I am confident in my packet so far, I just hope the fact most of my letters aren't from military leaders doesn't hurt me.
Vettepilot,
Thank you for your service. I have actually been to the Quonset air show twice, but thought since it was a Navy base, there wouldn't be any Army personnel there. I wasn't aware of Bradley Intl. but will look into that as well. Thanks for the information about the 160th as well. It would be a dream come true to serve in that unit and I will do everything I can to prove I have what it takes. Right now though, I obviously have to focus on the 100 meter target of getting selected for WOFT as opposed to the 500 meter target of getting selected for 160th.
Highside,
Thanks for the advice, I'll keep that in mind.
Bernie Smith,
Thank you for your service, as well. I have been to the first web page you mentioned, but not the second. In fact, I downloaded the application from that site and filled it out. However, now I that I am exploring that page more, I am finding more useful information, like an Army warrant facebook page where the Army answers questions about the program. I'll have to give myself remedial PT for missing that the first time. For some reason, that link to your article isn't working for me. I'll email you for the MS Word version. |
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bernie.smith
JH Newbie
Posts:4
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| 03/18/2010 9:39 AM |
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TDB467,
Sorry the link didn't work. From the JH home page, click on "Become a Pilot" on the left column/menu. Then under "Becoming a Helicopter Pilot-Related Articles", click "Read Articles". As of this morning, mine is on page 2, third one from the bottom. Feel free to email me with any further questions @ bernie.smith@us.army.mil
Regards,
Bernie |
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TDB467
JH Member
Posts:7
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| 03/19/2010 10:41 AM |
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Excellent Article Sir,
I especially enjoyed reading about the four different career paths that an aviation warrant officer can have when they aren't flying.
I am having lunch later this week with a Navy commander who is going to try to talk me into taking the NFO gig, but my mind is made up at this point, so I plan to politely decline.
Turns out my Army recruiter's lack of zeal had nothing to do with my packet, it had to do with his package. His wife is making him get a vasectomy and he isn't thrilled about it... He says Boston MEPs only gives the AFAST on the 1st Tuesday of every month so I'm scheduled for April 6. |
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ChaulkOne
JH Member
Posts:24
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| 03/29/2010 10:37 AM |
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| TDB467- I don't have the massive amount of experience that some of the earlier posters have, but my experience is a little more recent. I went to flight school in 2004 and spent 5 years at Fort Campbell, I'm now assigned to Rucker and will be instructing in the blackhawk course once I get through IPC. Anyway- the boards from what I've heard secondhand from crewchiefs trying to get selected has been around a 20% pickup rate. You having a degree might be what you need to get picked up. I have never been in the 160th, but have some advice about that decision- first off try to get yourself to Fort Campbell after flight school. Lots of guys "cross the street" from the 101 to the 160th, so you'll get to talk to guys who have done it and get more information before you make that decision, and I can't say for sure but supposidly having time in the 101 bodes well for a pilot aspiring to be in that unit. The other thing is, and you seem like a smart guy so I doubt it would be an issue, but don't show up day one in your first unit talking about how you're going to be a 160th flight lead by next week! I've seen guys like that before and best case they just get laughed at, worst case they actually manage to piss everybody in the unit off their first week. Just show up and learn from the experience that is in your unit, after you get some PIC time and a deployment under your belt, then start worrying about being in the task force. Anyway good luck I hope it works out for you, you definatly seem motivated about the oppurtunity to do this job! |
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vettepilot
JH Newbie
Posts:2
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| 03/31/2010 3:23 PM |
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The advice from chalkone was spot on RE: going to the 101st. They do lot's of flying these days, and are very NVG proficient. What he said about going across the runway after is also right on.
In my day, (groan, stuff from an old guy), we would see many of the Aviation Bde aviators at the O'Club Friday nights. Some times they would come ask us advice on to to get across the runway, and we could easily get a good idea if they were serious or if it was the alcohol talking. Serious guys got serious answers, and phone numbers to recruiting.
Yes the 160th has a whole recruiting section, well funded, and they visit posts world wide to make presentations to avators, and non-aviators.
Once you are in a unit, most likely you will have an opportunity to attend a presentation. They were here at Ft Rucker several months ago, so when you are in flight school, you may be fortunate enough to be here when they come.
Also, you might look at the 16th web site, I don't have the web
address at my fingertip, but if you search for 160th it will be in the list someplace.
Again, best of luck.
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TDB467
JH Member
Posts:7
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| 03/31/2010 7:23 PM |
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Thanks for your input, Sirs. I fully understand that the 160th is an elite unit that only takes the very best. I didn't even now until reading this forum and confirming on their website that they will take the top 2 students out of a flight school class if they are interested. The 160th is more of an ultimate career goal for me then something I expect to join right away. The only reason I even mentioned that regiment was that it was part of the reason I am going Army over Navy or Air Force.
I took my AFAST the other day and scored a 133. I was a little angry at myself that I wasn't able to answer all of the complex movement questions in the time limit, but still a decent score overall. Now I have been sending out requests for letters of recommendation and plan to contact a local National Guard unit about locating an Army Aviator who will interview me. |
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bernie.smith
JH Newbie
Posts:4
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| 07/09/2010 8:27 AM |
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TDB467,
Just doing a commo check with you and wondering how the process is going? Do you have a report date? Already there? Best of luck to you,
V/r
Bernie Smith |
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TDB467
JH Member
Posts:7
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| 08/05/2010 6:32 PM |
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| Thanks for your continued interest, Sir. My old recruiter rotated out and I have a new recruiter who has been very helpful. My packet was submitted for review before it went to the board, but got sent back a few times for various corrections. The latest and hopefully final issue is incomplete flight physical records. My recruiter has requested the records several times but the Naval Hospital in Newport where I had the flight physical done has been dragging their feet. We plan to drive to the hospital next week and request the records in person. Then my packet should be complete and ready for board review. The wait has been painful but hopefully will have been worth it. |
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